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Comments on: Of Course! https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/ On-line Opinion Magazine...OK, it's a blog Wed, 09 Aug 2006 03:36:13 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.3 By: Why Now? » Blog Archive » It’s The Water https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-17124 Wed, 09 Aug 2006 03:36:13 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-17124 […] Back in mid July Juan Cole provided me with the epiphany that produced Of Course. […]

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By: Bryan https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16824 Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:49:57 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16824 A major problem for all concerned is that everyone, including Israel’s enemies know exactly how Israel will respond, and that is being used as a weapon against the real interests of all of the people in the area.

Everyone should just ignore Ahmadinejad. He doesn’t even have the power to allow women to watch football matches in Iran. His position isn’t as powerful as Prince Charles in the United Kingdom. He doesn’t control the military or the Iranian foreign ministry, so people should just ignore him. The last official move he was able to get away with was to complain about young Iranians walking dogs. He should be viewed as similar to, but less powerful than Rush Limbaugh.

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By: jr https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16823 Tue, 18 Jul 2006 05:28:05 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16823 I like Cole’s stuff

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By: andante https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16822 Tue, 18 Jul 2006 03:46:22 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16822 Squeaky, you’re right on the money. The ‘situation’ is certainly not black & white, and there are so many layers and dimensions that it’s just Bush-ignorant to think a simple ‘disarm Hezbollah’-type solution or ‘give the land back to the Palestinians’ will make everything end happily ever after.

Neither should Israel be expected to forswear military force when fools like Iran’s Ahmadinejad openly advocate for Israel’s destruction.

I don’t mean to offer Jewish trauma as an excuse for being the neighborhood bully, but it is critical to understanding how Israel will react to provocation, perceived or otherwise. Using the example of the traumatized war veteran – we don’t condone a shooting rampage, but we don’t deliberately provoke it, either.

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By: cat daddy and dr squeeky https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16820 Tue, 18 Jul 2006 01:05:36 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16820 I think Brian’s points are very interesting since they highlight a rarely raised point… There is always a lot more than meets the eye…

I also would say that there are a number of dynamics at play in Israel. I cannot imagine the cultural trauma they endured. However, let’s remember that there have been many other groups that have endured similar experiences while the world merely watched (Armenians, Rwandans, etc.). However, I must point that it may be helpful for traumatized countries to be approached in similar ways as traumatized individuals, support, structure, limits, and careful interventions… We don’t let Vietnam vets go on shooting rampants when they have flashbacks and merely state, “They’ve been through a lot.” I don’t see why we should allow countries to do just that.

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By: Bryan https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16819 Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:39:14 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16819 Don’t misunderstand me, the Israeli government isn’t evil, it’s stupid, just like the American government. Its thinking is poisoned by testosterone.

If Israel had gone to Egypt to act as an intermediate, Egypt would have gotten a much needed boost in the Islamic world by demonstrating a benefit to dealing with Israel, and Israel would have been downgraded as the “great Satan” by being reasonable.

Hezbollah would have lost prestige by causing needless trouble. You have to remember that Hezbollah is Shi’ia and not trusted by the Sunni governments with Shi’ia minorities.

Now Hezbollah is being sold as a supporter of the Palestinian cause, which is not really true in the politics of Lebabon.

As for prisoners, not everyone in Israeli jails is political, they have plenty of common criminals to release and pad the figures.

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By: andante https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16818 Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:41:41 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16818 Israel is being pure stupid with this action; I wouldn’t go so far as to say they had sympathy in the Arab world, but Hezbollah didn’t have that many cheerleaders after the initial incident – there were plenty of Arab voices condemning Hezbollah’s actions, and Israel should have taken advantage of it.

But they didn’t; Olmert seems to be rather anxious to establish his “Yee Haw” credentials and has put the inmates in charge of the asylum. It’s distressingly familiar.

The prisoner exchange ratio is pretty heavily weighted away from Israel. Should prisoners be released back into the general population? That’s a judgement I hesitate to make, as I don’t live surrounded by people sworn to kill me. If I did, I suspect I’d be pretty quick to pull the trigger, too.

Israel has plenty to answer for; what country doesn’t? And yes, some of it is pretty unforgiveable. But you have to view Israel’s actions against two dynamics – living in a rough neighborhood, and that collective survival trauma. I just don’t belong to the “Everything Israel does is evil” crowd.

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By: Bryan https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16817 Mon, 17 Jul 2006 20:59:07 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16817 They ask for thousands and settle for a few. Israel cleans out its prisons of people who have served their sentence and claims it is part of the exchange. It would have been the three Hezbollah plus everyone that didn’t pose a threat, but Israel wanted to deport.

The part people miss about these exchanges is that those released are banned from Israel and the occupied territories. By doing this in these exchanges they do something that the Israeli Supreme Court won’t permit, deportation without a hearing. The US isn’t the only government that doesn’t like checks and balances.

The real point is that negotiations on a prisoner exchange should have been initiated through Egypt or Jordan before everyone started blowing things up. There is always time to blow things up, but there is no way to reverse the process.

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By: andante https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16816 Mon, 17 Jul 2006 19:50:40 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16816 I’ll agree with everything Cole says except this – “They could have traded 3 Hizbullah members in their custody for the 2 Israeli soldiers.”

Baloney. Since when did Hezbollah or Hamas trade so many Israeli prisoners/kidnap victims for so few in return? The ratio is always tremendously higher. it’s quite true Nasrallah has said there could be an exchange, but he declined to say how many. Past experience doesn’t point to as little as three.

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By: Bryan https://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/comment-page-1/#comment-16815 Mon, 17 Jul 2006 18:36:31 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/2006/07/17/of-course/#comment-16815 Karen, I lived in California for over a decade and have a sensitivity to water issues. Much of Western politics is about water issues, and we are starting to have issues down here.

If you have never seen the movie Chinatown, it eventually gets around to exposing the issue.

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