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Comments on: It’s Not Just The Telco Immunity https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/ On-line Opinion Magazine...OK, it's a blog Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:51:20 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.3 By: Michael https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37504 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:51:20 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37504 As for the FISA bill, I’m hearing it’s going to be postponed.

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By: Michael https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37503 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:46:36 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37503 Non-violence is important. What can be won through violence can only be held through violence, and if we want a peaceful world we must practice peace.

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By: Bryan https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37496 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:39:40 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37496 I’ve contacted both of my Senators and sent thank yous to Leahy, Dodd, and Feingold for opposing this garbage.

A front-pager at Shakespeare’s Sister who lives in Illinois has the response that he received from Senator Obama. It is not good.

Russ Feingold is the only Senator who has opposed every one of these power grabs from the USA PATRIOT Act forward.

The last time FISA came up, both McCain and Obama managed to be missing.

I’m not sure you can do much with this bill, as some bills are immune to anything except a vote. I know it works that way with some appropriation bills after they come out of a House/Senate conference committee, and that may be the Senate rule for all bills coming from a conference report. I’ll have to see if I can find out.

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By: Jim Bales https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37492 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:02:35 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37492 Fallenmonk,

No offense taken, and I took your comment (I believe) in the spirit it was given — a recognition that the founders understood that violence may be, at times, the only recourse left.

Now, the most urgent questions for all reading this are:

Have you contacted your Senator about the FISA Bill?

Have you contacted Sen. Majority Leader Reid?

Have you contacted Sen. Obama?

These are the actions required of us here and now, as well as calling the citizenry to join their voices with ours.

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By: Fallenmonk https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37489 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:45:01 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37489 Excellent rebuttal Jim and I was not, in any fashion extolling the virtues of violent revolution. I was just commenting that resolving to satisfy our need with non-violent action was not in the spirit of our founders. A concept with which you are obviously aware. My greatest desire is to resolve the challenges facing us within the rule of law but I will not rule out my right to take any means necessary to throw off the usurpers.
Thanks for the excellent riposte.

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By: Badtux https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37482 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:15:05 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37482 And I might add, non-violent has the best chance of a good outcome. I have not seen any violent revolution in history which has a good outcome (do not talk about the U.S. Revolution as a violent revolution, it was a war of secession by the established governments of the American colonies against the English crown, fought by organized armies in the field, not a revolution). Violent revolutions invariably bring to power the most violent, the most venal, through a sort of Darwinian process of elimination of the less venal. Just think about the French Revolution and Rasputin. The Russian Revolution and Stalin. The Cambodian Revolution and Pol Pot. On the other hand, there are any number of non-violent dismissals of established governments which have had at least acceptable outcomes, whether we’re talking about the fall of the Eastern Bloc governments during the late 1980’s, or the protests that brought down Milosevic in Serbia, or whatever.

But the thing is, non-violence requires courage. And I haven’t seen a whole lot of that from Americans lately, who are too fat, too lazy, too bought to care about anything other than where they’re going to get their next fix of black gold from…

In the end, we get the government we deserve. Alas.

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By: Jim Bales https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37481 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:59:22 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37481 Fallenmonk posts:
I am not so sure that Jim’s call for nonviolent action is actually strong enough when it comes to protecting the Constitution from attack.

I inserted “non-violent” because:
1) I believe that our aim — preserving the Constitution — is better achieved through the political process at this juncture. I believe that the combination of pressuring our elected leaders and rallying public support is much more likely to succeed than any violent alternative.

2) I wanted to note that while, as Jefferson, et al. stated:
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.,

they also warned us that:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

It is conceivable that the danger is still transient, and that public activism will turn the tide of authoritarianism that in rising in our government. While there is an appreciable chance of correcting this usurpation through the political process, the founders of our nation told the world that we should suffer the evil in the interim.

Of course, the founding fathers went on to say:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

The question before us is this:
Will the existing Guards for the security of our rights be sufficient?”

It is our obligation to exert every effort to make them so. If we try our best and fail, then the next step is laid out for us.

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By: Kryten42 https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37480 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:50:21 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37480 Well well! Perhaps I just heard the first words of the Revolution!

…because THAT is what it will take.

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By: Fallenmonk https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37478 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:38:21 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37478 From what I have been reading the only chance we have to stop this subversion of the Constitution is to get the telecom immunity part removed. This is at the heart of the whole effort to take away our 4th amendment rights. Without this the bill will be sent back to committee and with the time left in the legislative year it will die in this Congress. If nothing else Bush will veto any bill without immunity for the telecoms because this is immunity for him as well. Jim Bales is correct that if the bill can be made unpalatable enough to force a veto then it won’t get any action in this Congress.
Lastly, I am not so sure that Jim’s call for nonviolent action is actually strong enough when it comes to protecting the Constitution from attack. There are times when it is time put aside peaceful resistance and this may be just one of them.

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By: Jim Bales https://whynow.dumka.us/2008/06/23/its-not-just-the-telco-immunity/comment-page-1/#comment-37477 Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:50:45 +0000 http://whynow.dumka.us/?p=4335#comment-37477 Bryan writes:
I realize that most people don’t have my commitment to the Constitution,

They should at least match your commitment today, if not your level of commitment when you took an oath to support and defend the Constitution.

and that they probably think I go overboard when I perceive threats to it.

If they do, they are wrong, for you don’t.

This administration’s attack on our Constitution is the gravest threat the nation has faced since the Civil War, and it is far more insidious than that massive, armed uprising against the lawful government of our nation. The threat is grave, and it calls for the strongest possible non-violent response.

There doesn’t seem to be a legitimate purpose, so there must be an illegitimate purpose.

I would also note that there those who worked on the language of the bill and those who are only voting on the bill. The first group is trying to subvert the Constitution.

The second group may have, among its members, a wider range of motives for voting for the bill. I suspect that sloth and indifference play a role for some of them. I suspect that a desire to conform and not rock the boat plays a role for some of them. I suspect that a desire to please particular donors, particular constituents, or the party leadership plays a role for some of them.

To some extent, some of those in the second group are susceptible to public pressure. While the odds of our succeeding are long, it behooves us to apply the pressure however we can. Emails, phone, Fax, all are useful tools. But we have to speak out to those in the Senate who we might sway.

We need to urge the Senators to not just vote against the bill, but to support and take part in a filibuster to stop the bill, if need be. We need to urge them to amend the bill to strip the egregious provisions (or at least as many as they can), to amend it enough force the bill through additional deliberation (i.e., to stall), and/or to amend the bill to the point we would expect Mr. Bush to veto it.

As I said, this is a long shot. But the Constitution of the United States of America deserves our support, especially at this time that so many of our elected leaders are abandoning it.

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