Loss Of Civility
Almost no one is polite anymore. Public discussion has dropped into the gutter and no one seems inclined to climb out. The last 8 years of the reign of the War on Terror™ has turned reasoned debate into wide scale, childish, yelling matches.
The opponents of Proposition 8 have published the names on the donors list of the supporters of the Proposition, and many of the donors are talking of being “blacklisted”. The same article mentioned that the supporters of the Proposition contacted people who gave money to their opponents and threatened to “out” them if an equal donation wasn’t sent to supporters of the proposition [This is called theft by extortion in many jurisdictions].
If you are willing to spend big bucks to support something, why would you worry if your name was published? Political donations are part of the public record that anyone can look at. If you think that your position would be at risk because of being associated with an issue, don’t get involved except by voting.
I can’t believe that people would be so naive as to expect that you could limit the civil rights of a group of people, and that those people wouldn’t react.
The same type of thing is occurring over the choice question. A priest has announced that Obama Voters Must Do Penance before they can take Communion, and South Carolina Catholic diocese backs warning to Obama voters. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is now saying that any action to reduce restrictions on choice are an attack on the Catholic Church.
The Thirty Years’ War was an attack on the Catholic Church, the question of choice should be a private matter between an individual and their doctor with neither the state, nor the church involved. I don’t remember any calls for people to do penance after voting for the Shrubbery, even after the Pope said the Iraq War was wrong and he had approved the death sentence for so many people while governor of Texas which the Pope also condemns. This would seem to be selective morality based on partisan politics.
It may be time to “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” and start taxing churches, because they sure don’t intend to stay out of politics, and that was the deal.
13 comments
Actually, the administrator of Newman’s diocese (it doesn’t currently have a bishop) smacked him down pretty hard:
The statement then goes on to restate the thoroughly traditional Catholic teaching on the primacy of informed conscience.
Micheal, an unverifiable quote in a KOS diary versus the published public statement of the identified spokesperson for the diocese are not even on the same planet for credibility.
“People believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest” – Paul Simon, The Boxer
KOS, TPM, Drudge – there’s no difference in credibility anymore.
The diary in question noted that the statement had only appeared in local press.
However, a quick Google turned up the following:
Diocese Repudiates Catholic Priest Who Said Obama Supporters Should Not Seek Communion
Or you could go to the diocesan web page and read it for yourself (PDF link).
What was that acronym you were spouting just up the page again? JFGI?
Michael, I’m really sorry that I take to trouble to include links to major news sites in the stories I write about when you want me to waste my time chasing down opposing views because you don’t like the implications.
Why don’t people at KOS provide links instead of requiring people to use a search engine to verify what they are saying?
I provided the link to the story I was commenting on when I wrote it which reflects what I was saying and the conclusions I drew. Those conclusions are consistent with the statements coming from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and the actions of individual bishops in this country since the 1980s.
Actually, the Paul Simon quote, from Simon’s own web site, is “Still, a man hears what he wants to hear / And disregards the rest.” The same song also contains the word “lie” a whole lot. JFGI. 🙂
One can talk endlessly about whether this priest’s action represents official church policy or not. Or one can admit what many American Catholics refuse to admit: that individual Catholics’ views on abortion are highly variable in America, and often extend all the way to unapologetic political action, if not obstruction of the entrances of Planned Parenthood clinics, or worse… sometimes by church leaders. JFG that, too.
Well, that’s the weakness of Google, it doesn’t always provide accurate information. I got that quote from a lyrics site, but now that I think about it, I should have checked my own archives because I used it before and quoted it correctly [on March 3, and I used a music video for verification].
Truth be told both issues are a matter of inherent rights. The government needs to get out of peoples lives and stop interfering in personal decisions about sex and medicine. People get to choose their religion and can leave if they don’t want to follow the rules, but those rules shouldn’t be imposed on society in general.
It is possible that the attorneys for the Church read the IRS code and noted that what was said violated the part about advocacy for an individual candidate. Who knows, and, really, at this point who cares what religions do to their believers?
Bryan, lyrics sites are highly inconsistent, and I wish there were some that were more accurate than all the rest, but most of them are wrong sometimes. Simon is a very punctilious sort of guy (e.g., reportedly obsessive about the details of his studio work), and I wouldn’t be surprised if he checks lyrics on his site himself. But actually, I have that song by memory, and knew what I would find when I looked it up.
I wonder if the church lawyers read of the incident in 1988 at the main clinic of Planned Parenthood of Houston and Southeast Texas (a computer client of mine), the one in which all of us had to work through the smell of butyric acid tossed through the window the night before… Dog knows what it did to the patients, most of whom were there for anything but an abortion. Or if those same lawyers thought a few months later about the Operation Rescue folks who collapsed their bodies on top of nonviolent clinic defenders… one local newspaper reporter, known to be anti-choice, joined in the assault (and I’m not using that word casually) by leading his camera crew straight through the clinic defenders’ line. Where were those bastions of legality and morality then?
Sorry; they get no sympathy from me. If they want to feel noble about what they do, let them feel noble despite all the women who die for lack of basic reproductive health care as a result of the disruption of ordinary clinic activities not related to abortion.
Correction: “newspaper reporter” -> “TV reporter”.
Ehhh… Just round them all up and send them to Pluto. They have more than enough hatred, anger and loathing to warm it up for them.
What was that bit I read in Bible studies once as a kid… some strange word… Ummm… love? Something like that… Dunno, haven’t heard it for ages.
“Death is too good for them!” 😉
As we had three people murdered at women’s health clinics in Pensacola [35 miles West of me] I’m not exactly neutral on anti-choice people. It would be nice if some of these people showed a little support for pre-natal and child care. They seem to expend all of their time and money on something that rarely happens, abortion, while ignoring something that happens all the time, childbirth.
As a confirmed bachelor by temperament [I have issues with my temper] I really resent having marriage and women’s health issues on my ballot. It is none of my business or concern, but I am being forced to deal with it. I don’t care who people marry, or if they marry. I don’t care if people want, or don’t want children. Those are decisions of the individuals involved, not mine and not the government’s.
It’s not about not liking the implications, Bryan. It’s that you were entirely wrong. As I pointed out to you. And when you demanded evidence, I provided it. It took me a grand total of about a minute and a half to find. A reputable source would have updated the story once that information was provided. I’m not sure why McClatchy wouldn’t do so–it’s not like the statement is hard to find, right there on the front page of the diocesan website.
Back when I was in the newspaper business, that was called “research,” and it was the sort of thing that was expected if you were going to write a story. It isn’t the loss of civility that worries me–it’s the apparent unwillingness (in some cases, inability) to admit that there might be another side to the story and to seek it out. Small wonder a substantial portion of the electorate is convinced our president-elect is a Muslim who isn’t really an American citizen.
Our side, on the other hand, is supposed to be better at this.
“A reputable source would have updated the story once that information was provided. I’m not sure why McClatchy wouldn’t do so–it’s not like the statement is hard to find, right there on the front page of the diocesan website.” – Michael
And of course a website published by an official Church organization would never, ever, ever spin things to make the Church look better. After all, in this instance, that would be lying, and lying is a sin.
Perhaps McClatchy is waiting until it finds independent confirmation. I know I would.
In the interest of civility I let you get away with your garbage, Michael, but enough is enough. I addresses three facts: what the priest said, what the spokesman for the dioceses said, and what the bishops said. None of those facts have changed, and you didn’t address any of them. There is no need for McClatchy to “correct” its story, because the story is still true.
At some later time, the temporary head of the dioceses apparently changed the official position of the dioceses. That is a separate issue. At the time of the reporting the official position was total support for the priest.
Too bad that you don’t like it, but you don’t get to change the framing at will. You didn’t address my post as written, you tried to re-write it. You do this often, and it is really annoying. I realise that the fact that I prefer a level of civility in comments means that I have to ignore a lot, but it doesn’t mean I’m not aware of it. I spent years analyzing Soviet propaganda and am fully aware of all of the devices. I spent years in Mensa user groups and mailing lists, so I’ve watch the pros go at it. I try to avoid that sort of thing these days, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know it’s happening.