Heartfelt Thanks to Mary Beth
It’s time to acknowledge the hard work and concern of someone who is not a Floridian, but who has consistently supported our right to have our votes counted in this election: Mary Beth of Wampum. Best known for the Koufax Awards and covering Native American issues, she has stood with us to attempt to bring some democracy to our situation and has taken the trouble to actually be informed on the issue.
If you would like to inform yourself about what this is all about, how it started, and how it is progressing:
From the Florida Dems FAQ… is a quick overview of how the primary date was changed.
Sharpton supports disenfranchising Florida voters… is an example of one candidate’s surrogate going against a lifetime of principle for possible political gain.
This is wrong on so many levels… Roland Martin, another surrogate on CNN with another call for disenfranchisement.
Electoral college math… shows the effect of Florida on the November election for Democrats. Short version: Florida has 10% of the electoral votes needed to win the Presidency.
Think Florida Democrats… shows people that the Democrats can forget Florida if they don’t get this right. I would add that the referenced poll was among the Democrats who voted in the January primary, which makes them the more committed of party members. If a quarter of the most committed won’t vote in November, they also won’t man phone banks, won’t walk neighborhoods, won’t volunteer.
I’m already gone and won’t be back to the Democratic Party. I’m not a “good Christian” – I neither forgive nor forget.
37 comments
Thanks, Bryan. The background is helpful in understanding what happened here and how to fix it.
I think I would support an application to the rules committee in favor of seating the Florida delegation on the grounds that the rule violation was unavoidable under the circumstances, and the voters were given a full slate of choices on their ballots to choose among, so they should be represented.
I don’t see any way of fixing it. The Democratic Party has thrown away Florida and its golden opportunity for winning the Presidency.
If they send out a ballot it will only have two names on it, and that is not acceptable. This isn’t about resolving the DNC’s problem, this is about the right to vote. This is a fundamental civil rights issue and the party doesn’t understand.
They will when they lose.
I don’t see how seating the delegation that was chosen in the primary by process of application to the rules committee doesn’t fix it completely.
Michael, do you really not see that? The universe, at least the part we inhabit, is time-directional. You cannot unbreak dishes or eggs. And the DNC cannot truly reverse what they have done, not that I see much evidence that they have the good sense to want to do so.
Forgive my use of a typical Christian metaphor even if I am not one: put yourself in Bryan’s shoes. Now think for a few minutes until you come up with at least two reasons why things cannot be made right by any simple action the DNC could perform. I’ll give you one for free:
* if the DNC reversed its decision tomorrow and admitted the delegates from the too-early primary, Democratic voters in Florida would still know with certainty that the Party can and will disenfranchise them. What gives them any confidence the DNC will not do it again before August? or if not this election, next election? Worse than a dropped bowl, the voters’ trust has been shattered.
Now, if you choose to do so, come up with a couple more reasons. It isn’t all that hard.
Steve, I really don’t see any broken dishes or eggs. There was a primary and it was against the rules which were previously agreed to, but through no fault of the Florida Democratic party, therefore the correct thing to do is address the rule violation to the rules committee with an explanation, and the rules committee then approves the delegation.
The uncertainty of it is what is very troubling, no doubt. But nobody has been disenfranchised if the delegation is seated. There is nothing else that was supposed to happen as a result of the primary than that outcome.
[at least you can make omelets out of the eggs, and i’ve always used broken crockery to cover those holes in the bottom of flower pots that are supposed to let the water drain out, but, annoyingly, they let the dirt drain out too.]
There was a primary and it was against the rules which were previously agreed to, but through no fault of the Florida Democratic party, therefore the correct thing to do is address the rule violation to the rules committee with an explanation, and the rules committee then approves the delegation.
florida has offered and is still offering explanations galore, but throughout the entire kerfuffle the dnc hasn’t been listening. at this point, there is zero reason to believe that they will ever listen.
But nobody has been disenfranchised if the delegation is seated.
that’s not entirely true. we really don’t know how many people stayed away who might have otherwise voted, simply because they believed their votes wouldn’t be counted. sure, nobody forced them to stay away from the polls, they could still have gone and voted, but convincing people that their vote won’t count is still disenfranchisement.
and by “seating the delegates” do you mean “the nominee is first chosen and then overrides the rules and seats the delegates” [not an unprecedented action], or do you mean “florida’s delegates will be counted in determining the nominee”? because the first scenario is arguably the most likely, and it’s still disenfranchisement.
[…] national headlines, again, Change in Tallahassee – Florida May Do A Vote BY Mail Primary Do-Over, Why Now? – Heartfelt Thanks to Mary Beth, Avery Voice – REDO? We don’t need to RE-Chew our delegates, […]
All of the information that you read at Mary Beth’s was presented, and not only did it not sway the rules committee, they doubled the penalty. They could have reduced the number of delegates by half, but chose to eliminate all delegates.
I’ve written about rule 11A last month, and nothing alters the fact that nothing was done to Iowa, New Hampshire, or South Carolina for violating the rule, but Florida and Michigan lost all of their delegates.
The most that can happen at the convention is seating of the delegates after the fact, and that is worse than useless – it’s insulting and it isn’t going to get a Democratic candidate chosen at that convention on the ballot in the state of Florida.
Clinton and Obama better start gathering signatures, because that is probably the only way they can be sure of getting on the Florida ballot after what the DNC has done and the time to do it is running out.
hipparchia, I have heard the DNC chairman address this and he said very much what I just did except that he didn’t prefigure the outcome. It isn’t within his jurisdiction to address this, the rules committee is the only body properly constituted to settle this question.
What I expect to happen is that the Florida delegation will go to the convention as if the primary counted, and a motion will be made to the rules committee to let them be seated as if the primary counted, so that in fact the primary will have counted. As for those voters who chose not to participate for whatever reason, that is not something that can be addressed.
Bryan, all I’m going to say about it is that you are correct the Florida delegation should be seated but the rules committee doesn’t exist yet, that is to say the rules committee that needs to decide this is the one that will be at the convention. This is my understanding from what Dean said, anyhow.
“But nobody has been disenfranchised if the delegation is seated.” – Michael
That is very short-term thinking, Michael. I know I am sometimes an annoying messenger, but consider this short message: please expand your political time frame beyond the current election.
Floridians who historically registered as Democrats have to live with the threat of a repeat performance by the DNC. That is an irreversible change.
If you don’t like my eggs/dishes metaphor, fine, but please try to see that the DNC has “taught a lesson” by establishing… essentially forever, going forward… the notion that they can, and will, anytime they choose, disenfranchise anyone victimized by their own party’s or the opposition party’s malfeasance. That is a terrifying message for the DNC to send to its loyal base, and not just in Florida.
Michael, how does the rules committee undo the damage caused by the passage of Amendment 1 to the Florida constitution, the real reason for the Republicans to change the date?
They designed this to suppress Democratic voters, so the amendment would pass. Over 50% of registered Republicans voted, but only 40% of registered Democrats, the lowest Democratic turn out from any state this cycle, and the DNC made this possible.
You really don’t want to know what school districts and local governments who have lost millions in revenue because of Amendment 1 think of the Democratic Party.
The Republicans have Amendment 2 coming up for the November election, but that’s just an anti-gay measure, so it’s of no concern to the Democratic Party. [/maximum sarcasm]
There are serious election problems all over the country. We’re all concerned, not just Florida.
michael,
i agree with you that there are serious election problems all over, not just in florida, but i’m still curious what your definition of “seating the delegates” is.
There are no serious election problems in Florida, Michael – no, Florida’s problems are always a joke. Everyone has a good time laughing about how the Republicans have once again screwed over those “hicks” in Florida. No one offers any real help, support, or understanding, they just laugh about it.
Well, let them laugh about John McCain, because I’ve fed up with the bullshit bloggers and their piddling problems about people saying mean things about their candidates. and the childish insistence that certain states have to be first because of ancient, as in 30 year, traditions.
We are angry! There is no status quo ante possible, and the wound is not going to heal by the nominee “graciously” inviting the Florida delegation to come in and ratify the choice of others, because there is nothing left to decide. What Howard Dean is talking about is not going to get the nominee on the Florida ballot, because the delegates weren’t allowed to vote when it meant something.
The damage has already been done, and can’t be undone.
hipparchia, my definition is that the primary counts, the delegates that were chosen are given the ability to represent the state of Florida and vote in the nomination as any other delegate from any other primary state. They just have to get approved by the rules committee first because they weren’t chosen under the rules that were written last year.
Yes, it’s stupid as hell. And No, I’m not a member of the party anyhow, so if Bryan decides to quit the Democratic party over this, I’m not sure why I should care anyhow. I plan to vote for Barack Obama in November, and if Floridians don’t, people will not assume it’s because of the primary issue.
“There are serious election problems all over the country. We’re all concerned, not just Florida.” – Michael
Awwww, c’mon, Michael. Serious issues have been raised on this thread by three of us. Your statement is an evasion.
I know you’ve attempted to explain your support for the DNC’s decision, and waved away our objections that the DNC is (foolishly) not listening. But let’s get down to it: what about it? Does “seating the delegates” mean “according all of Florida’s delegates full rights from the beginning of the national convention process,” or not? Is the fact that Florida’s Amendment 1 passed as a direct result of the DNC’s rejection of Florida’s primary acceptable to you? Do you recognize that there is damage to the entire Democratic Party nationwide as a result of the DNC’s actions here? Answers, please!
(Michael, we posted at the same time.)
“I’m not sure why I should care anyhow.” – Michael
How does “President McCain” sound to you? You’re young; I’m old. You have a lot more years to endure whatever this nation becomes than I do. You may not be a Democrat, but I surely hope you’re a democrat, at least an advocate of representative democracy. If we allow McCain to become president, legally or not, we will have effectively reached the end of our nation’s representative democracy as we have known it. Yes, Michael, you damned well should care.
Steve, that’s my point. I am caring. I am trying to help Barack Obama become the next president, and whether Bryan prefers Hillary Clinton or someone else altogether, it seems like he’s saying that he’s not going to support Obama in November based on his anger over the Florida primary.
Maybe I’m just misunderstanding.
… so if Bryan decides to quit the Democratic party over this, I’m not sure why I should care anyhow.
awww, you care because you love us, michael! but seriously, you should care because if enough voters have a similar reaction, you won’t be able to build support for your candidate.
I plan to vote for Barack Obama in November, and if Floridians don’t, people will not assume it’s because of the primary issue.
of course they won’t. they’ll assume it’s because we’re a bunch of racists, or perhaps they’ll assume it’s because hillary clinton somehow stole the election, or [fill in your favorite conspiracy theory here].
even when we patiently explain all the political maneuvering that went on, and how this affected floridians, the most acknowledgment i’ve seen in the blogosphere is stuff along the lines of those silly floridians are whining about some silly tax issue that has nothing to do with the presidential election. why can’t they be more sensible?
it’s hard to decide if such commenters are being willfully obtuse or if they’re just hopelessly, jaw-droppingly stupid.
iirc, bryan isn’t planning to vote for obama, because he feels obama isn’t really a liberal, even though he [obama] calls himself a democrat. the florida primary debacle has apparently caused bryan to now throw up his hands in disgust over the rest of the people who are calling themselves democrats.
not that i blame him a bit. i’m still a registered democrat only because there’s a tiny chance of a revote, in which case i plan to write in john edwards, even if they don’t provide a space for a write-in vote.
Michael, hipparchia is spot on about this. Most voters are not political wonks like us. (Well, I’m probably not as wonkish as you and the others on this thread, but I really try to understand the inner workings of the process as I read about it.) They don’t care about the intricacies of Floridians’ effective disenfranchisement. All they know is what the DNC says, because that is reported again and again on the major news outlets.
As you may or may not know, I am firmly committed to the Democratic nominee in November. I have waxed and waned in my enthusiasm for each remaining candidate (having watched as Kucinich, Richardson and Edwards left the race), but I am unwavering in my determination to vote for the Democratic nominee… who may well be Obama. As I told an African American neighbor who inquired about the matter, if Obama is nominated, I’ll be there with bells on.
But Obama, or Clinton for that matter, cannot win in November without a legitimate slate of electors from Florida. Given the GOP’s intent not to even place a Democratic candidate on the Florida ballot if the DNC seats no Florida delegates, it is as much in your interest as in mine to see to it that the DNC relents, and grants full participation to Florida’s delegates.
That said, we really need to be thinking about the next two to four elections. Times are going to get really tough. You, Michael, may experience what my parents’ generation (most certainly including my parents) experienced: economic hardship of the sort we’ve never known. Whatever the DNC does about Florida’s delegation needs to reflect the very real need to solidify the Democratic Party’s base for the next… well, for the rest of my life. Absent that solidity, it won’t take but one President McCain to send our nation to the trash bin of history.
i’m not sure the republicans would succeed completely in trashing the country, but it will be a long hard slog recovering from whatever travails they’ll rain down on us if they gain control. i can easily envision it taking several generations to recover just to this point, let alone returning to the general middle class prosperity of a generation ago.
Steve:
But Obama, or Clinton for that matter, cannot win in November without a legitimate slate of electors from Florida. Given the GOP’s intent not to even place a Democratic candidate on the Florida ballot if the DNC seats no Florida delegates, it is as much in your interest as in mine to see to it that the DNC relents, and grants full participation to Florida’s delegates.
Yes. That’s what I’m saying, but the DNC says that’s the rule committee’s jurisdiction, and if you want me to blog about it and say the rules committee should damn well seat those delegates, I can do that, and it should happen regardless. With that, I seriously don’t think there’s a real threat to worry about Obama being kept off the November ballot in Florida. I don’t think Florida’s delegates will be enough to make Hillary Clinton the nominee. I don’t think she’s entitled to the Michigan delegates where she was the only named candidate on the ballot, and she’s overreaching by asking for them to be counted.
“With that, I seriously don’t think there’s a real threat to worry about Obama being kept off the November ballot in Florida.” – Michael
Ah, youth!
Take my word for it as a participant in presidential elections since 1968: worry.
I’m having trouble understanding how this got so out of control. Has Brad Friedman commented on this? Has someone mentioned it on his blog?
You know guys, while I’m honored you named me in the title, the fact is that the comments in this thread are really what should be highlighted – I learned so much, and and even more stunned at the stupidity of the party, and, frankly, Obama, for continuing to hem and haw on this (hipp, I’m also an Edwardian.) While I don’t think Clinton’s stand is perfect (and clearly is self-serving), it’s on the correct side of the issue – enfranchisement! How can anyone argue disenfranchisement is right? It just baffles the hell out of me.
Seriously, what can be done? Can we begin to organize a large protest in Denver? Tell me how to help, what to you, and I’ll do it.
just a program note — florida isn’t “10% of the electoral votes needed”.
florida is one of four states, any three of which is sufficient to get more than 270 electoral votes — florida (27), pennsylvania (21), ohio (20), michigan (17).
if we lose any of pa/oh/mi, then fl is the whole ball of wax.
think of it as 25% of what’s really in play.
now back to your regular programming.
Would the people of Florida really put up with the removal of the Democratic candidate from their November ballots?
Michael, given the way they have been treated by the Democratic party, they’ll probably insist on it.
Didn’t the Republican party also penalize Florida’s delegation to the RNC?
Yep, according to the rules, they lost 50% of their delegates.
So if the DNC did the same thing to the Florida Democratic delegation, then what? Would that keep the Democratic nominee off the November ballot?
If a Florida delegation, even a reduced delegation is seated, the election law is satisfied. The Florida delegation would have a voice in the selection of the candidate, so the candidate would be valid.