Deflecting The Blame

by Bryan

32 comments

1 Kryten42 { 04.25.09 at 3:34 am }

Yup!!!

Paul Begalia brought up that point in this interview, which C&L initially got wrong, but quickly corrected after investigation. Kudo’s.

Correction: U.S. actually did execute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding

Hypocrisy anyone?

2 Kryten42 { 04.25.09 at 3:35 am }

Oops! Paul Begala that is. Apologies.

3 Kryten42 { 04.25.09 at 3:53 am }

Here’s yet another, and a very important dismissal of the idiotic gOP talking points on the subject of torture!

There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.
…
One of the worst consequences of the use of these harsh techniques was that it reintroduced the so-called Chinese wall between the C.I.A. and F.B.I., similar to the communications obstacles that prevented us from working together to stop the 9/11 attacks. Because the bureau would not employ these problematic techniques, our agents who knew the most about the terrorists could have no part in the investigation. An F.B.I. colleague of mine who knew more about Khalid Shaikh Mohammed than anyone in the government was not allowed to speak to him.

F.B.I. special agent Ali Soufan who interrogated Abu Zubaydah says torture doesn’t work!

So… does that Make Bushmoron/Darth Cheney at al responsible for 9/11? 🙂

4 Bryan { 04.25.09 at 1:08 pm }

If there accidentally happen to be some real terrorists in custody, we can’t prosecute them, because of torture. All of the information was gathered under duress and is inadmissible in court, which is why all of the prosecutors at Gitmo have been resigning. They are professionals and they won’t use illegal evidence.

The FBI was attempting to build cases against terrorists, and they know this. The CIA [more likely contractors hired by the Company] didn’t care, that wasn’t their problem.

So now we have a group of people who we have every reason to believe are terrorists, and we can’t try them or hold them. This is the result of torture. It has made us powerless to act in our, and the world’s best interests.

5 Bryan { 04.25.09 at 4:57 pm }

Ah, the return of Colonel Blimp. It must be rather warm in that Turkish bath Colonel. Maybe you should step outside and try reality for a while.

The efficacy of the Gestapo in France must be the reason the Normandy invasion failed … oh, wait, it didn’t fail and it was assisted by elements of the French Resistance, as was the liberation of Paris, and the disruption of German resupply by the railroads.

Your empire didn’t fair so well against my ancestors, and torture didn’t save the Nazis or the Soviets, because the information they received was worthless, designed only for show trials.

Torture is the refuge of the coward and scoundrel, not the brave. There is no courage involved in injuring people in shackles, just sadism.

6 Kryten42 { 04.25.09 at 10:01 pm }

LMAO And here’s me being a little somber after ANZAC day rememberance yesterday thinking I wouldn’t get a laugh all do! And I nearly choked on my coffee! LMAO

And you say you don’t have Troll’s Bryan? LOL

Mind you… this one is entertaining, but hardy worth confronting. *sigh* Oh well.. we take what we can get I guess. 😀

And agree with you of course Bryan. 🙂

7 Bryan { 04.25.09 at 10:20 pm }

Actually, he’s on loan from Fallenmonk, who is too busy trying to put a garden in and looking for a new job to post on anything else.

I remembered ANZAC day, when I noticed the Gallipoli landing on my history widget.

That landing was not one of the Empire’s finest moments in military strategy, but there was a lot of that in WWI, on both sides. From start to finish that war was a total mistake that cost a lot of very brave people their lives.

8 Steve Bates { 04.26.09 at 12:38 am }

Tabitha! Bad kitty! Baaaad kitty! Why did you have to come all the way to Bryan’s place to poop on his thread?

Oh. Wait. Sorry, Tabitha. I owe you an apology. Not all crap comes from a 20-year-old cat…

Steve Bates´s last blog post..Treating Detainees Like Animals

9 Bryan { 04.26.09 at 12:22 pm }

Alas, the deluded are always with us, Steve.

I’m beginning to think you are right about the Ladies finding territorial markings of another cat in the house. Actually this activity is basically the same process – an attempt to “mark” territory.

10 Kryten42 { 04.26.09 at 10:55 pm }

LOL @ Steve! 😀

Here you go my friends, a small ray of sanity breaks! 😀

Joan Walsh: Torture is Illegal Whether it Works or Not

Finally! Some sanity. 🙂 The comments are worth reading for a change too, mostly. 😉

11 Bryan { 04.26.09 at 11:24 pm }

It isn’t just torture – people died – it is also murder. You kill someone in custody, it’s murder, and we just convicted a senior NCO of doing it.

12 Kryten42 { 04.27.09 at 10:49 am }

Dum, de dum de deee… Well, well… what have we here?

Hmmm… It appears to be a report by an expert on the subject of torture who served in Iraq. Well, let’s see what he has to say. 🙂 Surely a senior US military interrogator will agree that torture, even though it is in fact illigal, works. 🙂

The use of torture by the US has proved so counter-productive that it may have led to the death of as many US soldiers as civilians killed in 9/11, says the leader of a crack US interrogation team in Iraq.

“The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa’ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology,” says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq. It was the team led by Major Alexander [a named assumed for security reasons] that obtained the information that led to the US military being able to locate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al-Qa’ida in Iraq. Zarqawi was then killed by bombs dropped by two US aircraft on the farm where he was hiding outside Baghdad on 7 June 2006. Major Alexander said that he learnt where Zarqawi was during a six-hour interrogation of a prisoner with whom he established relations of trust.

Major Alexander’s attitude to torture by the US is a combination of moral outrage and professional contempt. “It plays into the hands of al-Qa’ida in Iraq because it shows us up as hypocrites when we talk about human rights,” he says. An eloquent and highly intelligent man with experience as a criminal investigator within the US military, he says that torture is ineffective, as well as counter-productive. “People will only tell you the minimum to make the pain stop,” he says. “They might tell you the location of a house used by insurgents but not that it is booby-trapped.”

In his compelling book How to Break a Terrorist, Major Alexander explains that prisoners subjected to abuse usually clam up, say nothing, or provide misleading information. In an interview he was particularly dismissive of the “ticking bomb” argument often used in the justification of torture. This supposes that there is a bomb timed to explode on a bus or in the street which will kill many civilians. The authorities hold a prisoner who knows where the bomb is. Should they not torture him to find out in time where the bomb is before it explodes?

Major Alexander says he faced the “ticking time bomb” every day in Iraq because “we held people who knew about future suicide bombings”. Leaving aside the moral arguments, he says torture simply does not work. “It hardens their resolve. They shut up.” He points out that the FBI uses normal methods of interrogation to build up trust even when they are investigating a kidnapping and time is of the essence. He would do the same, he says, “even if my mother was on a bus” with a hypothetical ticking bomb on board. It is quite untrue to imagine that torture is the fastest way of obtaining information, he says.

A career officer, Major Alexander spent 14 years in the US air force, beginning by flying helicopters for special operations. He saw combat in Bosnia and Kosovo, was an air force counter-intelligence agent and criminal interrogator, and was stationed in Saudi Arabia, with an anti-terrorist role, during the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. Some years later, the US army was short of interrogators. He wanted to help shape developments in Iraq and volunteered.

Oops! I guess not! Wow… who woulda guessed that? I mean, who other than anyone with a working brain any even half a clue that is. Amazing how all the *actual* experts say TORTURE DOES NOT WORK and TORTURE IS ILLEGAL, and the usual wingnut pundits all have orgasms at the thought of torture.

I just love listening to all the ignorant and stupid right wingut Bushmoron/Cheney ass-kissers all lying and pretending to know things it’s patently obvious that they don’t know the first thing about. It makes my day. 🙂

Full story here:
Torture? It probably killed more Americans than 9/11

Let’s see what other BS rightwingnut garbage we can debunk. This one is done to death, literally.

13 Kryten42 { 04.27.09 at 1:06 pm }

You know Brian, you are correct.

You can’t educate a moron. And an idiot will always be an idiot. Especially when said idiot has never been involved in the topic he foolishly tries to appear as an expert in. Particularly when the fool tries to convince at least two people WHO Have been involved and might be considered experts on the topic.

Seriously deluded. What a sad excuse for a human, typical of the species sadly.

What a shame you were not in Cambodia with my team. Then you would certainly be an expert in torture at the hands of the KR. Not that you would have survived to tell of the experience. Very few did. But they didn’t torture for information, they just enjoyed it. As almost all torturers do. Information is simply the excuse they use to be barbarians and sadists. The same for those who condone and are cheerleader for torture. Of course, they are also ignorant cowards.

14 LadyMin { 04.27.09 at 1:26 pm }

We should never compromise our values to say torture is ok under certain circumstances or for certain individuals.

What if we don’t get the information we want? Do we next threaten the detainee’s family? Perhaps torture them? Because if he really has the information we need, that may get it out of him? Is that ok? If it prevents an attack? Where do we stop? I prefer we never start down that road.

LadyMin´s last blog post..Another Touch of Spring

15 Bryan { 04.27.09 at 2:38 pm }

Let’s see, CIA official: no proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks on America, that’s based on a CIA IG report.

Then there’s Agency called harsh methods ‘torture,’ questioned results. The “Agency” is the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency, the people who have studied torture, it’s forms, uses, and efficacy for decades in devising the Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape [SERE] program used by the US military. They have access to all of the reports and information, including the classified documents, for the interrogation and torture programs of the Nazis, Soviets, Korcoms, and Chicoms. Their conclusion was it is ineffective and counter-productive.

On the other side you have the fevered musings of a former bureaucrat and ineffective CEO of an oil services company.

World War I was a terrible idea, caused by testosterone poisoning among a group of cousins, none of whom was qualified to operate a fish and chips cart, much less major countries with massive armies. If the start was bad, the execution was a disaster, and the ending led to World War II.

The soldiers did their duty, many with unbelievable levels of heroism and self-sacrifice, but they were unfortunately led by some of the worse commanders ever to be in charge of anything larger than a squad. It was one “cunning plan” after another.

I would point out that not everyone who comments is an American, and, while the same group could have a heated discussion of Michel de Montaigne: On Cannibals, it would stray back to the implications for current affairs.

I will leave with a quote: “You know, you have such a stunningly superficial knowledge of what went on that it’s almost embarrassing to listen to you.” Zbigniew Brzeszynski

16 Bryan { 04.27.09 at 5:27 pm }

You need to do a little research on the people you converse with.

I was a senior Russian analyst in the US military and read all Russian works in the original, and I have read everything of any worth as part of my job. I was a military and law enforcement interrogator. Both Kryten and I have graduated from the SERE programs offered to the military of our countries. We have “been there and done that”, so this isn’t an academic discussion for us.

You might get some truth under torture, but nothing you couldn’t get using standard interrogation techniques, and the information would not be actionable or admissible in court, if you would just as soon the subjects not be released at the conclusion of the operation. The subjects of torture, or even duress, cannot legally be tried by a court in any civilized country, and most countries will also exclude any evidence that was gathered as a result, under the concept of the “fruit of the poisoned tree”, a legal term of art.

Torture is unreliable and forecloses any prosecutions, so it is functionally worthless in the effort to combat terrorism. I think the people of Britain would be a bit disturbed if they found out prosecutions couldn’t go forward for the London bombing because the information was gathered by torture. Germany has already had to release a suspect in the 9/11 attack because of US actions. How many more terrorists does anyone want to let off without any punishment because a group of bullies think they have found a shortcut?

17 Kryten42 { 04.27.09 at 9:37 pm }

As Bryan said, been there, done that.

I’ve seen torture in all it’s forms. I usually only discuss my personal knowledge on such subjects, which come from Pol Pot’s Cambodia and a couple Pacific Island states. I also have a very broad academic knowledge due to my intensive military and intel training. I spent over a year in Cambodia on various missions I can’t, and won’t discuss. Perhaps one day I’ll talk about them face to face with Bryan because he’d understand. He is one of teh few people I’ve met in recent years that understand honor and integrity, who even understands the basic concept of right and wrong, he knows the truth and he knows about torture and information gathering, as do I. Torture is only ever used to terrorize. Either to terrorize the person being tortured, or others. Pol Pot used it to keep the people in line. He created forced labor camps and labor farms for millions of people, most who had been born and raised in cities or big towns.

I will mention one mission, though the details are classified. My team rescured an American who had been tortured. He was a mess. We didn’t think he would make it. He did, and I remember visiting him a month later, and there were tears all around. And he laughed! He laughed because he did give the KR information, he gave them half truths and in the end it was useless to the KR. He’d been through SERE and knew what to do. He said SERE was the only reason he made it. Ask him, or anyone else who has been tortured, if torture works.

Maybe you should try it David for a couple weeks like he did. Then maybe I’ll listen to you. Until then, you are an ignorant fool.

The entire discussion on the merits of torture are a foolish waste of time in any case, since, as I and Bryan and many others have stated, it is illegal!

The remaining KR leaders are facing a war crimes tribunal because of torture this year. Perhaps once that is over, they can focus on a tribunal for American war crimes. Spain, the UN and the World Court (and most of the World) all certainly say there is a case to answer. Hopefully, we won’t have to wait 30 years for that one.

Only terrorists and sadists use torture. You live in a fools paradise.

End of story.

18 Bryan { 04.28.09 at 12:13 am }

It is easy to be “broad minded” sitting in an armchair at home.

You can tell people, but they don’t understand until they experience it for themselves.

19 Kryten42 { 04.28.09 at 3:06 am }

Yep.

Have you seen this Bryan? I’m going to see if I can get a copy.

Taxi to the Dark Side: Oscar-Nominated Documentary Film Explores U.S. Abuses in “War on Terror”

NARRATOR: On December 5, 2002, Dilawar, a young Afghan taxi driver, was brought to Bagram. Five days after his arrival, he was dead.

CARLOTTA GALL: A US major checked the box for homicide. I said, “My god, they’ve killed him!”

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: It became plausible to me that this man wasn’t even guilty of anything, and he was murdered in detention.

PFC. DAMIEN CORSETTI: You put people in a crazy situation, and people do crazy things.

SGT. KEN DAVIS: People were being told to rough up Iraqis that wouldn’t cooperate. We were also told they’re nothing but dogs.

SPC. TONY LAGOURANIS: Interrogators were telling the guards, strip this guy naked, chain him up to the bed in an uncomfortable position, do whatever you can.

TIM GOLDEN: You had these young soldiers, very little training, just as the rules were changing, and they weren’t told what the new rules were.

SGT. KEN DAVIS: You start looking at these people as less than human, and you start doing things to them you would never dream of. And that’s where it got scary.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS: It was only the night shift. There’s always a few bad apples.

PFC. DAMIEN CORSETTI: The brass knew. They saw them shackled and hooded, and they said, “Right on! Y’all are doing a great job.”

SEN. CARL LEVIN: There were emails from FBI personnel down at Guantanamo saying, “You won’t believe what’s going on down here. We’ve got to disassociate ourselves.”

Yeah. “Y’all are doing a great job.” The rednecks are running things. Be afraid.

20 Bryan { 04.28.09 at 4:08 pm }

The operative definition is in the UN Convention on Torture that was the result of a lot of US input during the Reagan administration.

Here’s some more information to help you out:

Duress has been defined as a “threat of harm made to compel a person to do something against his or her will or judgment; esp., a wrongful threat made by one person to compel a manifestation of seeming assent by another person to a transaction without real volition.” – Black’s Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004)

You can also look to criminal law under crimes of violence beginning with simple assault and progressing to murder, as all of those crimes are to be found in the “enhanced interrogation techniques”. If you do something to another that could reasonably cause death, and they die, it’s murder.

The terrorists are not POWs, they are criminals who should be dealt with as criminals, something that many governments around the world have managed to do. There is absolutely no need to create some new classification.

The reason for all of these attempts at a new classification is because they resorted to torture and poisoned the standard trial process. If the FBI had been allowed to continue with their standard interrogation techniques, the real terrorists could have easily been dealt with by the US courts, as has been done in the past.

Almost no one at Gitmo was picked up on a “battlefield”, they were turned in for a bounty, and no attempt was made to determine if they had anything to do with terrorism. Most of the people didn’t.

The former President of the United States was a failed businessman who has never succeeded at anything except getting elected. We are trained and experienced individuals on the topic under discussion opposing ignorance. We are backed by all of the accumulated evidence. It is not an appeal to expertise, it is a statement of the facts.

You don’t know anything about my accomplishments since I entered civilian life, but are once again making assumptions. I wouldn’t belong to a “local residents association”, much less lead one, as I have found that they tend to be a bit too fascist for my taste. When I buy property I make damn sure there are no covenants on it, or I won’t buy it. Governments have purposes, but telling me when to cut my grass or paint the house is not one of them.

21 Badtux { 04.28.09 at 6:23 pm }

Please, do not disturb the troll with facts, he knows the Truth, as handed down to him by his Lord and Savior Darth Cheney, and facts are never of any use in convincing True Believers of anything. He has faith, faith I say, in his Lord and Savior Darth Cheney and His holy administration, and if his Lord and Savior says that torture is nice and groovy, why, then it’s true!

You are in the same situation as a biologist talking to an idiot who thinks evolution doesn’t happen because his preacher told him so. You can never convince tools like this of anything by presenting evidence to them, because in the end they have faith that their Lord and Savior, Preacher Pat, has the Truth and everything else is Satan’s lies.

— Badtux the Sometimes-trollish Penguin

Badtux´s last blog post..Well, well…

22 Kryten42 { 04.28.09 at 8:32 pm }

LOL @ Badtux! 😀

Yeah… But that’s no fun man! And in case, I certainly couldn’t care less about the troll’s education. He just gives me the opportunity to educate , and possibly amuse, others who might be reading this thread. For example:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman
or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

Adopted and opened for signature, ratification and accession by

General Assembly resolution 39/46 of 10 December 1984
entry into force 26 June 1987, in accordance with article 27 (1)

Article 1
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

Article 2

1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.

2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Article 3 – General comment on its implementation

1. No State Party shall expel, return (“refouler”) or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.

Article 4
1. Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.

2. Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.

Article 5
1. Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences referred to in article 4 in the following cases:

(a) When the offences are committed in any territory under its jurisdiction or on board a ship or aircraft registered in that State;

(b) When the alleged offender is a national of that State;

(c) When the victim is a national of that State if that State considers it appropriate.

2. Each State Party shall likewise take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over such offences in cases where the alleged offender is present in any territory under its jurisdiction and it does not extradite him pursuant to article 8 to any of the States mentioned in paragraph I of this article.

3. This Convention does not exclude any criminal jurisdiction exercised in accordance with internal law.

Article 6
1. Upon being satisfied, after an examination of information available to it, that the circumstances so warrant, any State Party in whose territory a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is present shall take him into custody or take other legal measures to ensure his presence. The custody and other legal measures shall be as provided in the law of that State but may be continued only for such time as is necessary to enable any criminal or extradition proceedings to be instituted.

2. Such State shall immediately make a preliminary inquiry into the facts.

3. Any person in custody pursuant to paragraph I of this article shall be assisted in communicating immediately with the nearest appropriate representative of the State of which he is a national, or, if he is a stateless person, with the representative of the State where he usually resides.

4. When a State, pursuant to this article, has taken a person into custody, it shall immediately notify the States referred to in article 5, paragraph 1, of the fact that such person is in custody and of the circumstances which warrant his detention. The State which makes the preliminary inquiry contemplated in paragraph 2 of this article shall promptly report its findings to the said States and shall indicate whether it intends to exercise jurisdiction.

Article 7
1. The State Party in the territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.

2. These authorities shall take their decision in the same manner as in the case of any ordinary offence of a serious nature under the law of that State. In the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 2, the standards of evidence required for prosecution and conviction shall in no way be less stringent than those which apply in the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 1.

3. Any person regarding whom proceedings are brought in connection with any of the offences referred to in article 4 shall be guaranteed fair treatment at all stages of the proceedings.

Article 8
1. The offences referred to in article 4 shall be deemed to be included as extraditable offences in any extradition treaty existing between States Parties. States Parties undertake to include such offences as extraditable offences in every extradition treaty to be concluded between them.

2. If a State Party which makes extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty receives a request for extradition from another State Party with which it has no extradition treaty, it may consider this Convention as the legal basis for extradition in respect of such offences. Extradition shall be subject to the other conditions provided by the law of the requested State.

3. States Parties which do not make extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty shall recognize such offences as extraditable offences between themselves subject to the conditions provided by the law of the requested State.

4. Such offences shall be treated, for the purpose of extradition between States Parties, as if they had been committed not only in the place in which they occurred but also in the territories of the States required to establish their jurisdiction in accordance with article 5, paragraph 1.

Article 9
1. States Parties shall afford one another the greatest measure of assistance in connection with criminal proceedings brought in respect of any of the offences referred to in article 4, including the supply of all evidence at their disposal necessary for the proceedings.

2. States Parties shall carry out their obligations under paragraph I of this article in conformity with any treaties on mutual judicial assistance that may exist between them.

Article 10
1. Each State Party shall ensure that education and information regarding the prohibition against torture are fully included in the training of law enforcement personnel, civil or military, medical personnel, public officials and other persons who may be involved in the custody, interrogation or treatment of any individual subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment.

2. Each State Party shall include this prohibition in the rules or instructions issued in regard to the duties and functions of any such person.

Article 11
Each State Party shall keep under systematic review interrogation rules, instructions, methods and practices as well as arrangements for the custody and treatment of persons subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment in any territory under its jurisdiction, with a view to preventing any cases of torture.

Article 11
Each State Party shall keep under systematic review interrogation rules, instructions, methods and practices as well as arrangements for the custody and treatment of persons subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment in any territory under its jurisdiction, with a view to preventing any cases of torture.

Article 12
Each State Party shall ensure that its competent authorities proceed to a prompt and impartial investigation, wherever there is reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committed in any territory under its jurisdiction.

Article 13
Each State Party shall ensure that any individual who alleges he has been subjected to torture in any territory under its jurisdiction has the right to complain to, and to have his case promptly and impartially examined by, its competent authorities. Steps shall be taken to ensure that the complainant and witnesses are protected against all ill-treatment or intimidation as a consequence of his complaint or any evidence given.

Article 14
1. Each State Party shall ensure in its legal system that the victim of an act of torture obtains redress and has an enforceable right to fair and adequate compensation, including the means for as full rehabilitation as possible. In the event of the death of the victim as a result of an act of torture, his dependants shall be entitled to compensation.

2. Nothing in this article shall affect any right of the victim or other persons to compensation which may exist under national law.

Article 15
Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.

…And so on! (There are 33 articles in total).

The USA is a signatory to this covenant. The USA has engaged in torture by the definitions above. The USA has broken and contravened several of the above articles, therefore, the USA has broken USA and International law and treaties. Spain is also a signatory and is petitioning the UN that the USA has a case for torture to answer (according to the covenant, only one signatory State needs to accuse another of torture, or one person who was subject of torture, for the UN to hold a tribunal). If the USA will not be a party to the tribunal, the matter will eventually be handed over to the International (World) Court for a judgment. The USA is also a signatory to the extradition articles and must turn over any and all people that the International Court judges have a case to answer.

AMEN Brothers! 😀

23 Kryten42 { 04.28.09 at 8:39 pm }

Oops! I meant to put a link to the document, which comes from Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Geneva, Switzerland.

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

It’s very easy to find actually. Google the words ‘torture convention’ and it comes up! Aint modern technology amazin??! 😀

24 Bryan { 04.28.09 at 10:28 pm }

We should probably give up on expecting the facts to make a difference, but you can always hope.

25 Kryten42 { 04.28.09 at 10:36 pm }

Seriously Bryan I wasn’t interested in his education (or idiotic views). I was posting for the benefit of everyone else who may not understand the full implications or details, even thought they understand that it was wrong and even illegal. 🙂

The only thing you can do with Trolls is ignore them. When I blogged for LoadedMouth, I put up a banner of a Troll under a bridge with the slogan: “Don’t Feed The Trolls!! They Always Bite The Hand That Feeds It!” 😆

26 Bryan { 04.28.09 at 11:06 pm }

I guess I expect people to do some research before making up their minds. It’s always comforting to know what you are talking about before you sign your name to it.

“Assumed knowledge” is one of my biggest blindspots.

27 Kryten42 { 04.28.09 at 11:18 pm }

Ahem. Bryan, I like you… I truly do! But sometimes, you appear to be a tad naive. 😉 I mean that in a kindly way, really. It’s actually a nice thing about you. 🙂

If everyone in the World bothered to get a clue before opening their mouths, or heaven forbid, actually thinking… The World wouldn’t be in the sh*t it’s in now and would be a very happy place to live. (I can dream too!) 🙂

I have to admit that long ago I too assumed people had a clue and even gave a damn. Then I realised I was better off beginning with the assumption they were as knowledgeable and understanding as a toadstool. Now I’m never disappointed, but sometimes pleasantly surprised, as I was when I found your blog. 🙂 When I lived in the USA and traveled widely for a year, I was initially astounded by the level of ignorance and misinformation. Now I understand why it is so and just accept it. *shrug*

28 hipparchia { 04.28.09 at 11:57 pm }

what kryten said.

i occasionally feed a troll or two, just in case someone who really is looking for facts should drop by.

hipparchia´s last blog post..Send faxes, faxes, and money! [update]

29 Kryten42 { 04.29.09 at 12:25 am }

I don’t mind someone who is seeking answers or is simply misinformed. But a troll is a troll. 😉

Hey Bryan… I have been biting my tongue (metaphorically) ever since I learned that Spain is petitioning for a Tribunal against the USA for Torture and other crimes! And that Germany is pushing hard for it also! Ahhhh… and they say that irony is dead! No, no… it’s very much alive and kicking! 😆

All we need now is for them to reinstate the Inquisition for the guilty, and the irony will be complete! 😉 😀

As Monty Python quipped in a skit years ago… “Nobody, expects the Spanish Inquisition!”

YouTube MP Spanish inquisition Skit

Yeah… I hadda do it! 😆

A laugh a day keeps the morons at bay!

30 Kryten42 { 04.29.09 at 12:30 am }

Ahhh… what the hey… here’s part 2 of the skit! 😆

The Spanish Inquisition Part 2

*diabolical laughter*!

31 Bryan { 04.29.09 at 12:49 am }

I try to be optimistic, it is part of the anger management regime. I burned out my outrage at these people in news groups and mail lists. To some extent, [OK, mostly] it is a form of “Sir”, and Number 7.

I tell people about Number 7, and they still don’t believe me.

You buy them books, and they eat the covers and use the pages to wipe their butts, but there’s always the possibility of injecting doubt. This thread is about interrogation techniques.

32 Kryten42 { 04.29.09 at 1:04 am }

Ahh. Yes, I forget about the anger management thing. I went through it for a few years after Cambodia after putting a debriefing officer in hospital requiring extensive surgery. He wasn’t part of the regular debrief team, and we’d just had a hellish couple weeks after my commander and two others had been killed in an ambush, and he asked the wrong questions and had the wrong attitude. *shrug* After a mission like that, we are supposed to have upto 5 days to debrief. He wanted to get it over in a day and get back to what he considered important. My file stated quite clearly that I had *issues* with certain types of authority. Obviously, he hadn’t bothered to read it.

… speaking about interrogation techniques. 😉

I learned that laughter really is the best medicine. 🙂 So, rather than getting angry at a fool now, I just laugh at them. I discovered that’s akin to torture for them! 😆 😉 Much more satisfying than rearranging their features, and it can be done remotely too! A value-added bonus. 😉